raj

Comment from Isolano
Time November 19, 2008 at 5:54 pm

No kidding … shocking to see ‘first think then do’ prevail over ’sure, sounds like a good idea …’

Seriously, I don’t think that rooftop patio would have been that great … no view, no music, closed at 11 … let’s hope someone can come up with a better idea, and get it through council.

In the meanwhile, if you don’t like Yaletown, why not try something else? Mainstreet has a pretty cool vibe about it these days …

Comment from raj
Time November 19, 2008 at 11:52 pm

Yea – just like they’re trying to do to Kenziten in the Crosstown / Chinatown / Gastown area. The rhetoric coming off the petition sheet sure isn’t about thinking. I’ll cover that later – you’ll certainly get a laugh out of the statements the ‘no fun city’ contingent use to sway the meek and week into thinking that free commerce and fair access to commerce is a bad thing. Give your head a shake.

Comment from Isolano
Time November 20, 2008 at 6:27 pm

I actually attended the meetings at city hall. I have to say, the con-crowd put on some pretty strong arguments. And the way councilors argued the case wasn’t bad either. One of the councilors actually tried to achieve what sounded like a reasonable compromise, but the Opus guy just rejected it out of hand. That didn’t look good. It also didn’t help that city planners, who supported the proposal, when questioned confessed that the Opus folks might have had a bit of an `attitude problem’ when communicating with them and residents. It would have been nice to see some more supporters show up, with better arguments. I can see why council voted this down – the Opus looked bad, their supporters looked week and uninformed, and they all didn’t respond well to reasonable questions.

Comment from Jason Briggs
Time November 20, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Isolano, you are spot on. The Opus guy sounds like an unreasonable man, from the views of both the residents and the city hall planners. And the Opus crowd came across as fools. They didn’t know anything about the proposal and were rude to the locals. The counselor (I think it was Lee?) that tried to create a comprise was shot down by the arrogance of the Opus owner – I have to say he made his own grave. I don’t think the general public has any idea of how close the neighboring buildings are either. One of the counselors pointed out that legally, buildings should be 80 feet apart for “breathing space”. Somehow, the Opus was built only 50 feet away from its neighbors. That’s pretty dodgy to begin with. The residents and the counselors were well within being reasonable. A rooftop bar/restaurant would totally rock, but this the wrong location. I think the Opus is foolish to pursue this. I have never seen such an angry mob of people, and their numbers seemed to grow with every hearing that passed. (I report for a radio station.)

Comment from raj
Time November 20, 2008 at 9:38 pm

Can you guys comment on what the proposed compromise was, please? Thanks!

Comment from Graham
Time November 20, 2008 at 9:41 pm

It is truly disappointing that people who CHOOSE to live in a dynamic, urban environment are the first to complain about noise and activity…the VERY thing that attracts them in the first place. Pathetic. Why oh why are Vancouverites such a bunch of whiners? Clearly we have a loooooooooong way to go to achieve our coveted ‘World City’ status.

Comment from Proponent
Time November 21, 2008 at 7:55 am

@ Isolano,

if you actually look around Yaletown, or at least read the bylaws. you would find that in fact, all Patios are supposed to be closed by 11, al patios are supposed to have no music, AND all patios have no views.

This application would have been special for Yaletown, because it would have been quieter (people dont have to talk over the noise of traffic and pedestrians). It would have enjoyed sunshine (not blocked by the buildings around it, like all other patios in Yaletown) and it would have been beautiful and green (with the proposed 10 foot high densely planted bamboo perimeter wall).

Check your facts before making unsubstantiated comments.

Comment from Proponent
Time November 21, 2008 at 8:12 am

Raj,

you asked about the compromise.
Councilor Lee asked if it was possible to set the capacity at 100 people maximum to start with and have a review in a year to assess performance and whether we could increase to 150, then again a year later etc. until it reached a pre-determined absolute maximum, which sounded like it would be set at 200.

The reason it was rejected by Opus was a point of feasibility.
There are a few points that need to be considered.
1. The cost to build the restaurant at any capacity would be in the range of $3 million. This is because no matter how many or few people are allowed to be there, the elevator shafts need to be extended, washroom facilities built and a floating steel subfloor.
2. This restaurant must be closed and vacated (including cleaning staff) by 11pm.
3. This restaurant was proposed as a seasonal amenity. this means that it would only be open in the summer months.

The above three points make it very difficult to operate or turn any profit on the restaurant at 100 persons. the reason the Opus was seeking 250 person capacity was a feasibility issue and the fact that BC Building Code would allow for that capacity. (based on emergency exiting capabilities).

Before anyone brings up the argument of using heaters to extend the season. I would suggest they go to Yaletown tonight and see how busy the patios are… they’re not. because nobody wants to sit outside when it is cold and wet, even if you are somewhat protected.

I hope this helps clarify.

Comment from Isolano
Time November 21, 2008 at 10:14 am

Raj: The compromise proposal of Councilor B.C.Lee (if I remember correctly) was to allow them to start with a 100 seat rooftop restaurant with an option to increase this later, if the impact (mainly noise) from that turned out to be within reasonable limits.

Graham: What makes you think that Vancouver is not ‘world-class’? We do pretty well in pretty much all global liveability rankings I’ve seen. Can it be made better? You bet! Could it get worse if we make careless decisions? You bet! At the council meeting, I didn’t hear a lot of whining (from either side), but rather a bunch of pretty reasonable arguments, mostly against the proposal. The situation is not as simple as you may think … as Jason pointed out, it looks very much like the Opus didn’t try to work with their neighbours and city council to find reasonable compromises and solutions. Given that Yaletown is a mixed-use neighbourhood (probably with more people living there than people doing business there), it seems reasonable to try and find a good balance between the interests of those who run businesses, those who visit to have fun, and those who live there. It simply doesn’t help when the Opus or its supporters say “You don’t like what we are going to do – just move elsewhere”. It’s like the residents saying “We were here first, why doesn’t the Opus move away if they can’t do here what they want to do” – that doesn’t help either (actually, I didn’t hear this argument at the meeting).

You know, I think what makes Vancouver great is that we have a downtown where many people live, including people with young kids and old folks, and at the same time, there’s decent business and entertainment activity. That’s pretty unique for such a dense downtown core, I think.

Comment from Isolano
Time November 21, 2008 at 10:46 am

@ Proponent:

I am confused … I know the area quite well, I’ve sat enjoying some sunshine on some of the patios, and it seems the Opus is, as Jason points out, very close to some buildings that would cause concerns and block the sun (for at least part of the day). I don’t see how you would have a lot of sun up there … anyway, I didn’t mean to say there are better places in Yaletown for this kind of thing. I have no idea – maybe, maybe not. But I do think there are better places in the city.

And as for the music: I often enjoy outdoor music on the patios at YBC (live) and Browns (speakers) – are you sure about those bylaws?

Comment from Proponent
Time November 22, 2008 at 5:24 pm

@ Isolano,

You are correct, the sun will be blocked out at some points by buildings, but to a lot lesser extent than the patios on the street.

Yes, any of those patios that have speakers are in fact not legal. (I am purely repeating what the planning department told me, because i asked the same questions as you).

You probably heard many opponents using Browns as an example of noise – “Browns keeps us up and they have a tiny patio etc”. My guess is that Browns ignores the good neighbour agreement and stays open a little later than it should, you have said they have speakers too, which explains why it is so loud, not only do you have music playing, but patrons have to speak louder to be heard.

I am a proponent of the Opus and am operating on the assumption that they would obey the law. if they didn’t then I would probably agree with some of the opponents. And unfortunately, I can see why they are so concerned – because it other restaurants are not obeying the law and are not being punished or reprimanded for it.
I think the real issue is not that patios are noisy or that the Opus would be noisy. I think the issue is that there is not enough enforcement of the laws in place. but i dont think that Opus should have been punished for the wrong doings of others.

Feel free to call the planning department, I did. they will tell you that the bylaws do not allow for “amplified or acoustic music” (which means everything). And all patios in Yaletown are supposed to be completely cleared out (including cleaning staff) by 11pm.

Comment from Ted
Time November 22, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Don’t Cry for Me Johnny Evans!

Don’t cry for me Johnny Evans
The truth is you’ve really lost it
Your rude demeanor
your wild application
Has caused a stir ‘mong
the population.

Don’t cry for me Johnny Evans
The truth is your cool idea
to build a restaurant
upon your rooftop
Has a been a great big
development flop.

Comment from Isolano
Time November 23, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Interesting news on Mr. Evans:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=379f5bd4-1667-49f4-9484-bd17a89d6482

Not sure how much I would trust the man, after what I’ve seen and heard of him at the hearings, or learn about him now.

Comment from Raj
Time November 23, 2008 at 5:16 pm

I think you’re reading a little too deep into this item. The Westin Grand is a great hotel – I’ve been there. I like it there, I’ve been a regular patron there since it opened. I think their biggest weakness is the people there.

It’s more the prevailing attitude of the people employed there that make me think twice about going there. Sad to hear that investors are holding the developers accountable for this.

I guess, in future, if I ever get external investment for any project again, I’ll make sure to put the ‘employees can flush this business down the drain’ clause in.